You’re in a new show.
Ceremonies in Dark Old Men. When they offered me the role, I was like, I don’t know this show. And when I did a deeper dive, I was like, oh, wait a minute, it was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize, it was done by Denzel Washington….
Laurence Fishburne.
… Laurence Fishburne
Billy Dee Williams.
… Billy Dee Williams. What the heck? And so I said, I have to be a part of this legacy. It’s a limited run, but I’m hoping that this will be maybe looked at in a different light, and picked up and moved somewhere else.
Norm Lewis and Jeremiah Packer in ‘Ceremonies in Dark Old Men’ • Photo by Maria Baranova.
When you read it, does it feel dated or does it feel like it still resonates? It seems like everything today is shit we’ve been dealing with for decades anyway.
There’s nothing new on this earth and no, it doesn’t feel dated at all. Obviously, it’s a period piece, but it definitely has the same sort of vocabulary, and yeah, just kind of repeating ourselves over and over again.
Talking about Denzel and Billy D. having done it, are either of them role models for you, or when you were young, did you have some sort of idols you looked up to?
Billy D was that sexy suave guy you wanted to be. I just remember him from Mahogany, with Diana Ross. And please, he had that voice. Then him being in the Star Wars series. But Denzel, obviously, he’s not much older than me; his career is one of note and he has all these awards and everything. He’s such a great actor. But yeah, so basically Laurence Fishburne, all of them I’ve looked up to.
So you’re a Tony, Emmy, and SAG nominee. Has that changed your life? Does that get you better seats at restaurants?
No.
Free upgrades on airlines?
It’s just nice to say when I get introduced. It’s one of those things where I have loved those awards ceremonies all my life, and just to have that even connected to my name has been great. Yeah.
It’ll be on your tombstone.
Yeah, exactly.
What were you nominated for an Emmy for?
Well, a couple of things. It was for Jesus Christ Superstar, and then I got nominated for a local Emmy for, I did a show during the pandemic at 54 Below.
Wow.
That was at Christmas time. Yeah. And so they gave us a nomination. We thought we were going to win, but we didn’t quite win.
And you also did a Christmas album. What was that like?
I’ve always wanted to do that sort of music. It’s my 11th year coming up at 54 Below now. And I just love that time of the year. If you have seen my album, the cover of it, it pays homage to Johnny Mathis, who is my favorite singer of all time.
Barbara Streisand’s favorite singer too.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, we’re in a good category. I love her too. She’s got something special too.
I think her husband surprised her on her 70th or 80th birthday and had Johnny perform for her.
That’s awesome.
Google it. I think, unless I dreamt the whole thing. And you were in Pose?
I was a preacher that was in the hometown of the character that Billy Porter played, Pray Tell. And I happened to be a childhood friend of his, who we had a relationship as young men, young kids. Obviously, he went a different direction. I stayed and I stayed in the church, I got married, had three kids and became a preacher in the church. But I always had this love of him and missed him. It’s an important episode. It kind of reflects Billy’s Porter’s real life, in a way.
You have quite a resume. Now, you’re associated with Sondheim from doing Sweeney Todd and also with Andrew Lloyd Webber.
Yes, yes.
Let’s start with Sondheim and Sweeney Todd and what that’s like?
Well, funny enough, I had a year of Sondheim, two shows back-to-back. I was doing Company up at the Helen Hayes in Nyack. I did Bobby in Company. That was a dream role of mine. And so I’m glad I got a chance to do it. With Donna McKechnie..
She’s so great.
Yeah, she was fantastic.
And she’s fucking sharp as a tack. I just actually interviewed her and she was amazing.
She’s so cool. And then right after that, I got hired to be in Sweeney, and I didn’t know… I thought, well, they’re going a little long in the tooth for Anthony, but I’ll sing Anthony. And they were like, no, they want to see you for Sweeney. And so I ended up playing that role.
That was 1999. And I did it at the Signature Theater down in Virginia. And then I got another chance to play it in Texas at the… in Fort Worth. Casa Manana. And then this last time at the Barrow Street Theater, which was fantastic.
Everyone loved it and raved about it, but I didn’t make it.
Very immersive. People, they came there for that.
What do you think of Sondheim?
I call him the Shakespeare of musical theater. It’s difficult to learn it, but once you get it in you, you can’t forget it because it’s so delicate. And these numbers that are skewed, if you will, atonal notes and things like that. But it makes sense when you actually really figure it out. And working with him, I remember we did Sondheim on Sondheim, on Broadway with Barbara Cook and Vanessa Williams, Tom Wopat, Leslie Kritzer was in that. Yeah. But it was one of those things where he came to see our rehearsal a lot. So, he was basically the co-director, and he gave us a masterclass. Me singing Being Alive was completely different than what… He gave me a perspective that made me really, really think of what he wanted. Instead of saying, “Someone to love you too much someone hurt me too deep,” he was like, “Someone to hurt you too deep.” He wanted to focus on the body. He’s like, I really want you to say “some body.” And I never understood it, but then as I started singing it, I was like, oh, I get it now. He just wants that emphasized in a way that really is meaningful, because in that story, he says that he never fell in love until he was 60 years old, 6-0. And I always thought that was so sad.
Yeah, the mother was a problem too, I have to say. There’s this amazing documentary about Oscar Hammerstein Jr., that Stephen is in. And the mother was a monster. And then Andrew Lloyd Webber.
Andrew Lloyd Webber.
You were the second black Phantom after Robert Guillaume, although some people claim you were the first. I guess you were the first on Broadway.
I’m the first on Broadway, and I always make that point. And I stand on Robert Guillaume’s shoulders. Because seeing him actually made me think that I could even have a possibility of doing it. And so it was about representation, and luckily it worked out in my favor. But yeah, he was… Andrew Lloyd Webber was… Is, still, just this amazing writer. Everybody thinks of Phantom of the Opera as the creme de la creme of Broadway. So I can tell, when people meet me and they ask me what I do, and I’ve given them a little bit of my history on Broadway, as soon as I say Phantom, they go, “You were the…” It becomes something different. And it’s elevated. Porgy and Bess was just as difficult, and Javert [Les Mis] was just as amazing for me…
And King Triton [The Little Mermaid]. I imagine the gays go crazy for you because of King Triton, because he was such a hot daddy.
It was funny. I knew I had to get in shape for that role. I didn’t know quite what the costuming was going to be. And once I got in shape, they actually took some things away. I was actually supposed to wear a bodice, almost like a corset, with mesh all over me and have my nipples drawn in, and muscles… But I got in shape just to be safe. And then they were like, well, can you go naked? And I said, sure.
I love it. Bring on the revival! That was an important moment. Although, weren’t they on roller skates? There were some things about that show that were a little cuckoo bananas.
Well, they were trying to find a way for us to navigate a way underwater. And so our choreographer thought of… He saw these kids at an airport on their Heelies, and he said, oh my God, they can walk and then they can just skate off. And it actually… I know that it kind of sounds kooky, but it kind of worked, for me at least. I didn’t have to do it but I learned how to do it because I wanted to understand our language of what underwater meant in our show.
Speaking of your physique, I don’t know if you’ll remember… I came backstage to see Audra McDonald during Porgy and Bess and I told you that you were too hot to play Porgy, because the whole thing about Porgy is it’s like A Streetcar Named Desire.
Yes. Yes.
Stanley has to be really hot, otherwise you won’t put up with him beating up Stella. He’s really hot. You’re torn. That’s why when I saw it with John C Reilly, he was horrible because you just did not want to fuck him.
I remember this conversation.
Yeah. I’m a very hard-hitting journalist.
I love it. I love it.
You were nominated for a Tony. Did you feel like that was kind of a career highlight moment? Had you always dreamt of that role [Porgy]?
No, actually, funny enough, that was not one of the roles. Because I always thought that I was going to be on the operatic stage. I never really saw it coming back to Broadway, and especially what kind of version we had, because we brought it down from a three and a half hours to two and a half hours. But no, it was never one of my dream roles. But then once I was offered it and knew what their plans were with the show, I got more involved. And plus to work with Audra… Come on. It could be Oscar the Grouch.
Yeah. Did you see her in Gypsy?
She was fantastic. But Roses Turn… I couldn’t sit in my seat. I was pushed out of my seat because I couldn’t believe that she could do what she did on that stage, eight times a week.
Yeah, it’s crazy.
I was blown away.
She’s totally a genius. I’m pulling for her not to win the Tony for this, just because she’s already got six. So it’s kind of just like, spread the wealth. But she’s definitely a genius.
I hear that Nicole (Scherzinger in Sunset Blvd) is probably the frontrunner.
I think so too. Sunset Boulevard is my favorite movie, but even though it’s your close personal friend, Andrew Lloyd Webber, it’s not my favorite show. I think the production is amazing and I think she’s great. So what are some dream roles? Les Mis, was that a dream for you?
It was a dream role. I saw it on my birthday.
I dreamed a dream!
I dreamed a dream… I remember seeing it on my birthday in 1987, right before they won the Tony. I wasn’t living here yet, and I was visiting from Orlando, where I grew up. I remember seeing it and saying to myself, I have to be in this show somehow. And the dream came true and I got to be there.
How was it?
It was great. And I’ve done many different incarnations. Broadway, West End, the 25th anniversary. So it’s one of those roles that I think has helped musical theater, because a lot of people who don’t like musical theater, love this show. And I think it opened the door for them to see other shows.
What’s it like, performing in London versus Broadway?
There’s a dedication that you see, and a respect for the theater that, not saying that it’s not respected here, but a lot of people… And it’s a little bit more affordable there, too. But I think people in London are open to ideas. I don’t want to say experimental theater, but they’re open to ideas that they’ve never heard of before.
Nice. So you’re from Florida?
I grew up in a small town called Eatonville, which is the oldest black chartered municipality in the United States. Zora Neale Hurston is from there. Their Eyes Were Watching God is about Eatonville. There’s another famous sports person by the name of Deacon Jones. He lived there. But yeah, growing up in Florida was great. I had a great childhood. I was a tennis player, growing up. I wanted to be a professional, but then got redirected to this acting thing and have been doing it ever since.
Your Broadway debut was The Who’s Tommy. What was that like?
When I moved here in 1989, I didn’t think I was good enough for the union, so I stayed non-union for a year, just on purpose. And then finally when I got enough courage, I decided to audition for union jobs. Got it. And then I said, well, maybe I can do Broadway. And it took about three years, but I finally made it to the Broadway stage and I wanted to make it before I was 30. And I did it right, two months before I turned 30.
Amazing. So are there dream roles left that you are dying to do?
I’ve played a lot of good roles that I’ve dreamt of doing, but I’ve often thought of La Cage aux Folles, I’ve thought of My Fair Lady, actually.
Which guy in La Cage aux Folles? “I am what I am” or the straight guy?
The straight guy. Because I think that there’s better people who can play the other role. And I don’t think I have the legs for it, but…
Lies. That’s not what the King Triton fan club says.
But no, I have to kind of look at the roles that fit me now. Oh, I’ve even thought about Man of La Mancha…
I saw that when it was with Brian Stokes Mitchell… What do people recognize you from, most? Is it from Scandal or the TV things you’ve done? Or is it Broadway?
If you know musical theater, you would absolutely be… Probably Javert or Phantom. If you are someone who doesn’t really look at musical theater as much, I get a lot of, “Oh man, you look like somebody,” or, “I know you from someone.” And then when I say Scandal, they go, oh yes. And actually a couple of times, Pose. And lately it’s been, they’ve rerun an episode that I did of Younger.
With Sutton Foster.
Sutton Foster. There were so many people who have called me in the past two months because they re-aired it. They’re like, “Norm! Oh my God! I just saw you in Younger!”
So even when you’re on TV, you’re a Broadway star!
Catch Ceremonies in Dark Old Men at Theatre at St. Clements, NY, through June 29th
Norm Lewis in ‘Ceremonies in Dark Old Men’ • Photo by Maria Baranova.
